Interview FriendsWithYou｜個展「Ocean-寺of the Sacred Heart」

——2002年開始的FriendsWithYou,是怎麼開始的呢?

在SAM 90年代,我們通過朋友相遇,成立了FriendsWithYou作為交流藝術活動。開始,是體現了雷人場景的主要信條——PLUR(和平、愛、統一、尊敬的略稱),對我們來說是嘻哈運動。從一開始就想創造出適合現代的精神狀態。另外,正如亞歷山大·霍德羅夫斯基所產生的“賽科魔術”這一新詞一樣,創作的中心也存在著將藝術作為治療工具的創意。我希望宇宙的力量能成為我們的夥伴,在宇宙的全部都是FriendsWithYou的想法下,我們以創造出一個能與逼近的孤獨格鬥的治愈藝術為目標。

從TURY開始的23年間,我們現在一起活動著。最初是從共同畫繪畫開始的,但是因為還沒有明確的方法論,所以開始製作作為布偶銷售的軟體模型。而且,我知道這些蘊藏著激發主人可能性的魔法力量。

——FriendsWithYou在創作作品中最重要的想法是什麼?

TURY我們所做的事情的有趣之處是,使用像年幼孩子一樣的表現造型和方法,傳達更深的資訊。說到作為藝術家的立場,就是不放棄像孩子一樣驚訝的感覺,從世界各地獲得靈感。正因為如此,為了作為社會一員發揮作用,對於人生不能讓人驚訝或興奮的想法,我總是反抗。原本是作為自己生活中的應對方法一直很重視的,但是我想把它分享給社會。就算反覆無常、快樂、興奮地想玩,一整天都很興奮。

在SAM佛羅裡達長大的我度過了一個粗暴的童年時代,TURY也有很多逆境,兩個都不得不在14歲離開家。因此,不得不比別人早長大。所以,現在即使長大後,也會留下很多空間,玩、做夢、看藍天思考、成為別人的榜樣的空間。遊戲是神聖的東西,像孩子一樣驚訝和夢想是自由的,我們相信每個人都有很大的夢想,所以把愛、希望、好奇心、遊戲作為所有作品的主要因素來吸收。

——請告訴我小時候的事情。關於最初體驗創造喜悅的記憶。

雖然SAM粗暴粗暴,但我覺得他是個堅強的孩子。到處都是糾紛,經常被捲入各種各樣的事情中。自己長大的佛羅裡達,簡直就像威廉·終點“蒼蠅之王”一樣的沼澤地。黑暗,拼命地活著。這和作為愛和和平的戰士而活動的我們的生活形成鮮明對比呢(笑)。那個時候,我自己也是個謎,用工具和球棒弄壞玩具,用半夜拿著的燈泡的熱把它們溶解出來,製作出奇妙的塑膠塊。

TURY小時候的記憶最鮮明的是,在自己長大的古巴和哥哥一起創作的。使用在後院發現的東西製作精致的構造物,以此為基礎展開了關於布雷格的故事。

——個展“Ocean-寺廟of the Sacred Heart”以想象中的神話“Ocean”為主題的新繪畫和雕刻為焦點。是從什麼想法中誕生的?

SAM“Ocean”是一種一系列神話,表達了新自然主義想法的一系列神話,旨在使人們、自己以及與生存的地球關係更加親密。這個概念是從想創造一個能夠說明我們至今為止做過的事情的、將人們結合起來的新神話而產生的。也就是說,所有的宗教、各國都拋棄了以前的想法,讓人們回到自己身上,讓作為母親的自然和起源的神回歸,將開始的宗教改編成現代風格。說起來,我們是從海裡來的,幾乎都是海水成分形成的,有著像波浪一樣鼓動的心臟。

將TURY地球的名字改為“Ocean”,將我們居住的地方稱為地球的歷史改寫。我覺得現代的歷史比起自然,更注重人類。原本地球是藍色的,茶色行星是不存在的。同樣,我想在比自己更存在的生態系統中,提出符合倫理的新框架的神話。為了重新審視我們現在所在的地方和未來,與其說是把自然作為整體來看待,不如說是回到恐怖主義的想法上,包含著想要重新調整人類的力量和動力的想法。

——FriendsWithYou的主題和作品中流動的動漫,在以亞洲為首的日本也是自古以來滲透的思想,有沒有受到亞洲文化影響的部分呢?

SAM動漫主義,也就是說所有的東西都有靈魂的想法,在宇宙成為你的夥伴的我們的主要想法、所有作品主題的中心,我非常喜歡用這個創意來玩。而且,日本對我們來說是一個很大的靈感。使用象徵和角色來喚起感情,啟發人們的方法是我們作品創作的核心。

雖然受到了TURY的深深影響,但是關於動漫主義,母親在古巴實踐的西非宗教、自然現象等動漫主義,非常原始信仰體系的約巴教的影響。

——兩位沒有分擔角色,而是按照文字一起製作作品的,最初的一步是什麼呢?

既有從TURY對話開始的,也有一起坐著開始畫畫的。實際對話和視覺交流都在進行。比如說,“你讀過這個神話嗎?”對於共享各自的想法,一起混合創意的創造浪潮,習慣親近是非常棒的事情,共同作業非常有趣。正是兩個人潛水到海裡,看著流到哪裡的感覺。

SAM兩個人都有不枯萎的靈感之泉(笑)。有時會把讀神話、看藝術、人生中經歷過的事情、冥想、實驗、研究中得到的想法等帶入作品中。和自己一樣強大的藝術家一起工作,就能實現還沒有完全成形的想法和理想。一起做的話,既能創造出魔法般的短語,也能最大限度地表現自己心中的東西,或者用意想不到的方法將夢想具體化,我覺得非常棒。

——順便說一下,你知道怎麼完成的呢?　意見也有分歧嗎?

SAM兩人都能接受的時間就是完成的瞬間。如果不認為我們喜歡的話,就無法送到世界各地。常常遇到只有我們無法理解的困難狀況。那個時候,互相拿出意見,推進想法,把那個變成形式。總是有各種各樣的想法在漩渦中,像這樣作為一個美麗的展示完成,真的是令人興奮的冒險啊。

當然會討論TURY對於自己來說是否有價值的表達方式。正因為有熱情,有時也會感情用事。但是,花了23年的時間,我切實感受到,找到了更加積極地互相尊重對方的意見,構築新事物的協商方法。

——失去自信,撞到牆壁的時候,是怎麼跨越的呢?

表現出TURY的姿態,努力。我認為這是最簡單的應對方法之一。然後,需要適應失敗和不完美的狀態。致力於一般的方向,只是每天向前看,展現身影,竭盡全力,淋浴,吃飯,工作結束,再做到順利為止。帶著信念致力於創意,與大的想法緊密相連。所以,我認為失敗這一概念是不存在的。我認為在失敗之前能得到知識,所有的相互作用都有價值。

SAM我們總是不想讓事物完美。粗暴的部分、醜陋的部分、時而有人情味、不可思議才是美麗的。隨著事物數字化,變得完美美麗,人們就會被髒汙、粗糙的部分、醜陋的瞬間所吸引。

——你們兩位是如何定義藝術的?

在TURY人類的活動中,表現出不可否認地流入的東西的行為。

作為SAM創意和創造物被提示的人類生存的對話。

——為了自由而不偏頗的表達,必要的是什麼?

SAM不要害怕,從心底創造。

TURY失敗的意志。

——沉浸型裝置、遊行、雕刻、繪畫、動畫、演唱會表演、以及與品牌合作等,涉及多方面的領域、種類、方法進行表現活動的理由是什麼?

為了製作TURY強大的藝術,作為藝術家必須一個人呆在攝影棚裡,這樣的想法是過去的。為了創造現代、未來的新藝術,需要更加強大的智囊團。所以,把藝術家、工程師、哲學家以及其他合作者捲入其中的想法,對於一直兩個人合作的我們來說,是自然而易做的形式。另外,我認為solo藝人是唯一創造出優秀藝術的存在,這種想法也就像神話一樣了。

從SAM精細藝術的世界,從小孩子到學術界的人,單純的人,都有想接觸所有的人。無論是誰的想法還是夢想,都是歡迎的。各種各樣的作品都是和不同場所的人相遇的工具。即使沒有直接合作,參加我們社區的人們也同樣對藝術多樣化、進一步進化感興趣。而且,我們的故事都有一種團結的羈絆,讓我們的故事全部恢復力量。這才是“Ocean”想法的源泉。我們不僅是故事的創造者,也是故事中的藝術家。並且,創造新的世界,行星的是所有藝術家,是我們的故事。藝術家有創意,那個想法也有力量。所以,我相信只要我們齊心協力,就能製作出充滿力量的東西。

——實際體驗了PARCO MUSIUM TOKYO的展覽會的感想怎麼樣?

TURY期待以上。真的是一個非常有趣的空間。我們想要傳達的,在這個世界上是沒有意義的,但是確實是這個世界上的東西,在某種神秘的另一個時空中,這樣的感覺能夠傳達出來,我感到非常幸福。我們經常想要創造的是留下回憶的體驗,但是我堅信這次展覽一定會帶來它的。

SAM近年來的作品聚集在這個空間裡,能遇到美麗體驗的地方真的很開心。親眼目睹了各自蘊含的想法、想法,以及為了創造出這些所需要的一切,以及它成為一體所產生的力量和感動,心中充滿了喜悅和愛。

——觀看的人們有什麼反饋會很開心嗎?

體驗過TURY藝術的人們的反饋非常有趣。對於我們來說,藝術幾乎都是實驗,一邊嘗試想法,一邊觀察人們是怎麼想的,如何產生共鳴,如何影響心靈。所以,如果有反饋的話,可以更加注意那個是什麼樣的東西。著眼於人們如何與藝術接觸,實際上占據了我們藝術的一大部分。有句話叫“關係性美學”,鑒賞者來到PARCO MUSIUM TOKYO,通過與作品對話而產生的體驗才是我們真正思考的真正藝術。

SAM對。我們在網上也有投稿,但是看不到那個的人實際上是怎麼想的。所以,當人們親眼看到藝術,他們真的體驗了藝術,感受到了什麼東西的時候總是很開心的。好的事,壞的事,醜陋的事,什麼感情都是最好的反饋。

——這次展覽時,澀谷PARCO對你的印象是?

非常喜歡SAM東京和澀谷象徵性地標PARCO!　能讓大家體驗我們藝術的機會,我感到非常高興,也非常感謝大家對我們的智慧、親切、支持我們的NANZUKA和他們的家人。

從TURY更新前就來玩過好幾次了。在畫廊和博物館裡也看到了很多精彩的作品。PARCO經常能證明產品需要藝術和設計,是一個充滿刺激的地方。

——這次來日本,打算怎樣度過東京呢?

融入TURY東京這個城市,享受在這個地方的樂趣,吃很多好吃的東西,也想去美術館。對於來自地球另一邊的國家的我們來說,知道有什麼樣的文化動向,既刺激又有趣。

我想去SAM前幾天去世的田名網敬一先生的大規模個展“田名網敬一記憶的冒險”。見到他真的很高興,很喜歡他。森美術館的“路易斯·布魯喬瓦展:雖然說是從地獄回來的地方說的,但是太棒了”也預定去。這次從洛杉磯來了很多作為同志的朋友,如果能和他們一起看各種樂趣的話我會很開心的。日本有很多好吃的、燒賣的東西,還想接觸日本文化,獲得靈感。

FriendsWithYou, an art collective based in Los Angeles. Spreading their unifying message of 'Magic,' 'Luck,' and 'Friendship,' they have been creating interactive art that fosters new human connections. Their solo exhibition 'Ocean - Temple of the Sacred Heart' was held at PARCO MUSEUM TOKYO.

In this exhibition, they’ve created a fictional myth called 'The Book of OCEAN,' which commemorates the heroes who devoted their lives to the algorithmic war to liberate humans from the various devices that control us and return us to nature. Beneath the pop, KAWAII, and playful world they show lies a message: to remind us of Earth’s original form as a planet of oceans and to unite all living beings that inhabit it. Samuel Albert Borkson (referred to as SAM), born in Florida, and Arturo Sandoval III (referred to as TURY), born in Cuba, discuss their works that are completed through the experience of the viewers.

——Since FriendsWithYou started in 2002, could you share how the two of you met and how your collaboration began?

SAM We met through friends by going to raves in the 90s and founded FriendsWithYou as a conceptual art movement. In the beginning, it was kind of our hippie movement that epitomized the main tenets of the rave scene, PLUR: peace, love, unity, respect. We wanted to create new modes of spirituality for modern times. The idea of using art as a tool for healing, as in the term“psychomagic”coined by Alejandro Jodorowsky, has also been central to our creative process. We invoked the power of the universe to be conspiring in our favor and with the idea that everything in the universe is FriendsWithYou. And our goal was to battle the looming isolation we felt by creating healing art.

TURY Twenty-three years have passed since then and we are still working together. We started out by collaboration on paintings, but we didn’t yet have a clear methodology, so we began making soft sculptures, which we sold as plush toys. Then we discovered that those were in turn imbued with magical powers as a way of helping the owners manifest their own potential.

——What do you value in the creation of your work?

TURY I think one of the things that makes our work interesting is to use childlike figuration and mannerism to communicate deeper messages. Our stance as artists is that we don't let go of the child's wonder and to be inspired by the world. We’ve always resisted the notion that to be a functional member of society, you must not have your sense of wonder and excitement about life. It is something important that we have always tried to hold onto as our own way of coping with our existence and we want to bring it to the world, that it's okay to feel whimsy, happy, excited, wanting to play and being thrilled all day long.

SAM Growing up in Florida, I had a pretty rough childhood and TURY also had a lot of adversity and both of us had to leave home at the age of14. As young kids, we had to grow up quicker than others. Maybe that's why, now, in our adult life, we have left a lot of space to play, dreaming, looking at the blue sky, and thinking, something that can be examples and models for the rest of the world. We believe that play is holy, that wonder and dreaming like children is freedom, and that everyone has a huge dream inside of them, so we incorporate love, hope, curiosity, and play as the main ingredients of every artwork.

——Please tell us a little about each of your childhoods and also about your first memory of experiencing the joy of creation?

SAM I think I was pretty violent, but I was tough. There was a lot of trouble, always involved in all sorts of them. I grew up in Florida, which was kind of a swamp, like William Golding's“Lord of the Flies”. It was dark time and I was just trying to survive. It's a stark contrast to our lives today, where we are active warriors for love and peace. In those days, strangely enough, I would break toys with tools and bats and melt them together with the heat of a light bulb I had in the middle of the night to make strange plastic blobs.

TURY The most vivid childhood memories of creation were with my brother in Cuba, where I was raised. We would build these elaborate constructions in the backyard with found objects and developed an entire story line about the bricolages.

——Your solo exhibition“Ocean - Temple of the Sacred Heart”focuses on new paintings and sculptures based on the imaginary myth“Ocean”. Could you tell us about the ideas that inspired these works and how they developed?

SAM“Ocean”is a series of myths that represent a neo-naturalistic idea to bring people closer to their relationship with themselves and our living planet. The idea of“Ocean”came from us with a desire to create a new mythology that would unite people in a way that would explain what we have been doing the whole time. In other words, we are putting a modern spin on the origins of religion, focusing on beginnings, which is to throw out all previous ideas from all religions and countries and bring humans back to ourselves, back to Mother Nature and the gods of our origin. To begin with, we come from the sea, we are mostly made of seawater, and we have a heart that beats like a wave.

TURY It is also an effort to correct and rewrite the history of calling the earth we live on to“Ocean”. I feel that modern history prioritizes humans over nature. In the first place, the earth is blue, and there was never a brown planet, was there? In the same way, we wanted to present the myth of a new framework that aligns with our ethics in an ecosystem that goes beyond its current understanding. In order to rethink where we are and what the future holds, we wanted to return to a more holistic view of nature as a whole and realign human power dynamics with the planet.

——Animism, a theme that runs through FriendsWithYou's work, seems to resonate with Asian culture, including Japan. How do you think this culture has influenced you both?

SAM It has been a huge inspiration—the idea of animism, that everything has a soul and that the universe is acting in your favor, is at the heart of our main idea, the core of all our work, and we love playing with this idea. Japan has also been a great inspiration to us. Using symbols and characters to evoke emotions and inspire people is at the core of what we do.

TURY Although deeply influenced, when it comes to animism, I am very much influenced by Yoruba religion of West Africa, which my mother practiced in Cuba, and a very primitive belief system rooted in an animistic view of natural phenomenon, etc.

——The two of you literally work together on a piece of art without sharing roles, what is the first step like?

TURY Sometimes it starts with a conversation, other times we sit down and start drawing. We communicate both verbally and visually. We share references and ask each other, for example,“Have you heard about this myth?”And so on. It is amazing to get so comfortable with our creative wave of sharing each idea and remixing ideas together, and the collaborative process is very interesting. It is exactly the feeling of jumping into the ocean and seeing where the currents take you.

SAM Yes, it is. We both come with very fertile spring of inspiration. Each of us may bring to the work new myths we have read, art we have seen, experiences we have had in life, thoughts we have had from meditation, from experiments and research, etc. Working with another artist as powerful as myself allows me to realize ideas and visions that aren’t fully formed. It is wonderful that together, we can create new magical phrases and bring out the fullest expression of what’s inside us, often manifesting dreams in unexpected ways.

——By the way, how do you know the work is finished? Do you sometimes have disagreements?

SAM When we both like it because we both have to love it for it to go out into the world. Sometimes we run into difficult situations that we can’t figure it out on our own. In those cases, we push each other sharing ideas and mold them. So it's always an exciting adventure to see all the different ideas swirl together to create this beautiful show.

TURY Of course there are arguments where we try to express what is valuable to us. Sometimes we get emotional because we're passionate about it. But I feel that over the course of 23 years, we have found a way to talk about things in a more positive and mutually respectful way that builds something new.

——When you have lost confidence or hit a wall, how have you overcome it?

TURY I feel like showing up and trying is the one of the easiest ways to deal with that. And you have to get comfortable with failing and not being perfect. We are committed to a general direction: just be positive every day, show up, do your best, shower, eat dinner, work out, and try again until it works out. Having faith in the commitment to an idea leads to bigger ideas. That's why I don't believe in the concept of failure. We gain knowledge beyond failure, and we see value in every interaction.

SAM We don't always try to make things perfect. Because there is beauty in rough edges, ugliness, sometimes in humanity, and in strangeness. As things become more digitized, perfect, and beautiful, I think people will be attracted to things that are messy, have rough edges, and show moments of ugliness.

——How do you define art?

TURY Any human activity that channels what is undeniable to our will.

SAM Living dialogue of humanity presented as these ideas and creations.

——What do you believe is necessary for free and unbiased artistic expression?

SAM Just create from your heart with no fear!

TURY The will to fail.

——Why you work in a wide variety of fields, genres, and methods, including immersive installations, parades, sculptures, paintings, animations, live performances, and collaborations with brands?

TURY I have always thought that the idea that to make powerful art, an artist must be alone in the studio is outdated. In order to create truly modern and futuristic art, you need an even more powerful brain. So the idea of involving other artists, engineers, philosophers, and other collaborators was being a natural and doable form for us, as we have always collaborated together. I also think that the idea that artist as a solo are the only ones who create great art is also now a bit of a myth.

SAM We want to touch the whole world from the fine art to everyone, from small children, to the most academics, to the most humble or simple people.". Everyone is welcome into our ideas and dreams. So different types of works reach people in different ways. Even if we are not collaborating directly, those who join our community are equally interested in diversifying and pushing further their art works. And there is a unifying thread that return the power to all of our stories. That is a big part of the idea for“Ocean”. We are not only creators, we are artists inside of the story. And it is all artist and our stories that creates a new world, a new planet. Artists have ideas, and those ideas have power. So I believe that if we work together we can make something really powerful.

——How was the experience of your solo exhibition at PARCO MUSEUM TOKYO?

TURY Super excited this looks amazing it's beyond our expectations. It’s beyond our expectations and a truly magical space. I felt the ethereal other time and space, which doesn't make sense in this world, but it definitely is of this world, that feeling wanted to convey. We always aim for creating a memorable experience, and we are confident that this exhibition will definitely bring that.

SAM I am so happy to be able to be see this space where all of our works from the past few years come together to becoming a beautiful experience. I'm so proud of us and what we've made and when I see it together and witness the power, all the ideas and feelings that go into each piece and all that it takes for us to create it, it really fills me with joy and love.

——What do you think is the best feedback from the people who view your work?

TURY We always find it fascinating to hear how people experience our art. For us, art is almost like an experiment, trying out ideas and seeing how people feel, how they relate to it, how it sits with them. So when we get feedback, we can pay even more attention to what it looks like. Focusing on how people interact with art is a huge part of our art. There is a term called“relational aesthetics,”and we think real art is an actual experience created when viewers come to PARCO MUSEUM TOKYO and interact with the artwork.

SAM Yeah. We post our works online, but we cannot know how the people who see them actually experience. So it is always nice when people who see our art and experience them express to us what they feel. The good, the bad, the ugly, any emotion is the best feedback.

——What impressions do you have of Shibuya PARCO?

SAM We love PARCO, a definitive landmark of Tokyo and Shibuya! We are so happy about the opportunity for people to get experience our art here and we are also very grateful to NANZUKA family who are amazingly smart, kind and supportive of us.

TURY We have visited PARCO so many times even before it’s renewal. I have seen many great works in the galleries and museums, and PARCO has always been an inspiring place that proves that products need art and design, and encourages the creation of such.

——Do you have any anecdotes about this trip to Japan?

TURY I plan to blend in with the city of Tokyo, enjoy being here, eat lots of good food, and visit museums. For those of us who come from countries on opposite sides of the world, it is very exciting and interesting to know how the culture operates.

SAM We are planning to go to“Keiichi Tanaami: Adventure of Memory,”a large-scale solo exhibition by Keiichi Tanaami, who recently passed away. We were really happy to meet him and loved him so much. We also thinking about going to“Louise Bourgeois: I have been to hell and back. And let me tell you, it was wonderful”at the Mori Art Museum. This time many of our friends came from L.A., so we will hang along and show them new things. We will enjoy delicious foods in Japan, and hope to be inspired again by its culture.